http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=265920

hi,

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

l.

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Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 01:52:11AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

first, it's great that you're using such a descriptive subject line that
sure makes most of the people skip the mail.
second, its cool to get to know about an issue after something like a
year and a bit

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Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.


--
Dirk//\

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December 6, 2005 22:06, Dirk Mueller wrote:
Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.


it might rotate around debian soon it seems they have now a planet and according to newton law of gravity
Mathieu
--
So as your consumer electronics adviser, I am advising you to donate
your current VCR to a grate resident, who will laugh sardonically and
hurl it into a dumpster. Then I want you to go out and purchase a vast
array of 8-millimeter video equipment.

K! Got everything? Well, *too bad, sucker*, because while you
were gone the electronics industry came up with an even newer format
that makes your 8-millimeter VCR look as technologically advanced as
toenail dirt. This format is called "3.5 hectare" and it will not be
made available until it is outmoded, sometime early next week, by a
format called "Elroy", so *order yours now*.
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Revolution"

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Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:
Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.

well, I don't exactly know why, but Adeodato S told Luke to report it to
KDE, so he did. Anyway, it's better solved in Debian than here (unless every
SE/Linux distro [Fedora Core comes to my mind] has the same problem?)

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Australia.
-- Charles Schulz

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Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:
Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.

*shrug* :)

that kinda defeats the object of having a debian bug-reporting
mechanism - esp. where the debian maintainer(s) don't feed stuff
through to you!

oops :)

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Wednesday 07 December 2005 17:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:
Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.

*shrug* :)

that kinda defeats the object of having a debian bug-reporting
mechanism - esp. where the debian maintainer(s) don't feed stuff
through to you!

They do, quite often, for bugs that are indeed KDE bugs.
See 106607, 104454, 66986, 99166, 98889 and others forwarded by Ben Burton.

--
David Faure, faure (AT) kde (DOT) org, sponsored by Trolltech to work on KDE,
Konqueror (http://www.konqueror.org), and K (http://www.koffice.org).


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El M, 7 de Diciembre de 2005 17:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
:
Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:
Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?
>
I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not
rotate around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place
where the actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get
fixed in a magically automated way.
>
*shrug* :)
>
that kinda defeats the object of having a debian bug-reporting
mechanism - esp. where the debian maintainer(s) don't feed stuff
through to you!

The idea of the Debian bug tracking system, is that if a user doesn't knows if
the problem is Debian specific, or not, it can be reported there, and the
Debian maintainers can forward it upstream if it's not.

The problem with the KDE bugs, is that there are _lots_ of bugs to handle, and
the Debian maintainers don't have the time to wok in _all_ of them: reproduce
them, check if are debian specific or not, and forward upstream.

Adeodato told you in the bug report to fill it yourself upstream, because
maybe none of the Debian KDE maintainers use SELinux, so none of them can
reproduce the problem, and fill a meaningful report.

--
Alex (a.k.a. suy) - GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2
http://darkshines.net/ - Jabber ID: suy (AT) bulmalug (DOT) net

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i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.

which, now that i re-read it, i notice that it is extremely patronising,
and all possible thought of being nice and non-confrontational goes out
the xxxxing window.

given that you are happy to write patronising messages, i am not
therefore too surprised at your statement.

i therefore invite you to accept reality.

the reality is: there are too many people using debian who have found
"reportbug" and use it for you to whine about how the world "does not
revolve around debian".

the mozilla team accept the reality that bugs are going to
come in from several sources.

why the xxxx can't you?

get with it, get off your damn high horse, and accept that intelligent
and stupid people alike are going to report bugs - not to suit _your_
whims but because the reporting method is _there_ and they haven't been
told any different.

if you _want_ people to stop using the debian system, then here are your
options, in no particular order:

1) write a program to sabotage bugs.debian.org or a subsection of it.

2) write a program that slurps bugs of certain debian package names and
duplicates the contents in the kde bugs.

3) write a program that monitors the bugs of certain debian package
names and sends a message to each notifying them of your ****ing dip****
disposition that "this bug will be totally ignored because i am so up my
own arse i cannot be bothered to read it unless you post it on _my_
system".

4) put in a bugreport against the debian "reportbug" package about this
entire issue you find so objectionable

5) write a patch to reportbug to have an "exclusionary list" or an
"advisory / warning" saying that the debian bug reporting for any kde
package is _specifically_ for reporting debian packaging problems _not_
for reporting bugs on kde, and pllllleeeeasse pretty please could you go
go _ourr_ nice bug-reporting system

6) stick your head in a bucket of cold water and CHILL UT (i'll be
doing likewise in a couple of minutes, just as i get to about no 8 or so
on this list of suggestions)

7) develop an of
bug-communicationey-stuff protocol "thing" that allows free software
bugs to be "pushed" across to different interoperable systems. i
strongly advise you to consider looking up AS/2 which is an RFC on how
to communicate XML documents and also to have a digitally signed
"receipt" indicating acceptance of the transfer. perhaps that's a
bit overkill, but worth considering.

the basic principle: allow bugs to be searched across
multiple systems (not just your own system); allow a bug to
be transferred by the thingies. bug maintainer people. for them
with one easy push-of-a-browser-button say "here. _you_ deal with it".


ahh, why didnt' _you_ think of some of these ideas, instead
of just bitching about how debian and its users are so XXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXX we interrupt this email to bring you some light
refridgerator i mean elevator music.

ahh, i feel better now. calm, calm. i am at onnnne with the universe.
i am bleeennnnded in.


Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:

Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.


--
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i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.

which, now that i re-read it, i notice that it is extremely patronising,
and all possible thought of being nice and non-confrontational goes out
the xxxxing window.

given that you are happy to write patronising messages, i am not
therefore too surprised at your statement.

i therefore invite you to accept reality.

the reality is: there are too many people using debian who have found
"reportbug" and use it for you to whine about how the world "does not
revolve around debian".

the mozilla team accept the reality that bugs are going to
come in from several sources.

why the xxxx can't you?

get with it, get off your damn high horse, and accept that intelligent
and stupid people alike are going to report bugs - not to suit _your_
whims but because the reporting method is _there_ and they haven't been
told any different.

if you _want_ people to stop using the debian system, then here are your
options, in no particular order:

1) write a program to sabotage bugs.debian.org or a subsection of it.

2) write a program that slurps bugs of certain debian package names and
duplicates the contents in the kde bugs.

3) write a program that monitors the bugs of certain debian package
names and sends a message to each notifying them of your ****ing dip****
disposition that "this bug will be totally ignored because i am so up my
own arse i cannot be bothered to read it unless you post it on _my_
system".

4) put in a bugreport against the debian "reportbug" package about this
entire issue you find so objectionable

5) write a patch to reportbug to have an "exclusionary list" or an
"advisory / warning" saying that the debian bug reporting for any kde
package is _specifically_ for reporting debian packaging problems _not_
for reporting bugs on kde, and pllllleeeeasse pretty please could you go
go _ourr_ nice bug-reporting system

6) stick your head in a bucket of cold water and CHILL UT (i'll be
doing likewise in a couple of minutes, just as i get to about no 8 or so
on this list of suggestions)

7) develop an of
bug-communicationey-stuff protocol "thing" that allows free software
bugs to be "pushed" across to different interoperable systems. i
strongly advise you to consider looking up AS/2 which is an RFC on how
to communicate XML documents and also to have a digitally signed
"receipt" indicating acceptance of the transfer. perhaps that's a
bit overkill, but worth considering.

the basic principle: allow bugs to be searched across
multiple systems (not just your own system); allow a bug to
be transferred by the thingies. bug maintainer people. for them
with one easy push-of-a-browser-button say "here. _you_ deal with it".


ahh, why didnt' _you_ think of some of these ideas, instead
of just bitching about how debian and its users are so XXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXX we interrupt this email to bring you some light
refridgerator i mean elevator music.

ahh, i feel better now. calm, calm. i am at onnnne with the universe.
i am bleeennnnded in.


Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 04:06:54AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:

Tuesday 06 December 2005 02:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

was the issue mentioned in this report ever resolved?

I'm not sure why I have to state the obvious, but the world does not rotate
around Debian, and unless you report the bug at an upstream place where the
actual maintainer can read about it, its unlikely that bugs get fixed in a
magically automated way.


--
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Monday 09 January 2006 06:08 pm, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>
the reality is: there are too many people using debian who have found
"reportbug" and use it for you to whine about how the world "does not
revolve around debian".

Wait! Are you saying the world DES revolve around Debian? No one is in
any manner suggesting that people stop reporting bugs to Debian. That's
just silly. What some people are suggesting, however, is that not all
developers keep up with Debian's bug database. There are simply too
many operating systems, distributions and support groups out there for
a developer to keep up with them all.

The practical reality is that bugs need to be forwarded upstream to the
project in question. This is common courtesy. The Debian packagers of
my software gladly do this. They are wonderful human beings. Bless them
all! I am hoping they aren't the exception, and that your attitude
isn't the rule.

--
David Johnson

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>the reality is: there are too many people using debian who have found
>"reportbug" and use it for you to whine about how the world "does not
>revolve around debian".
>
>the mozilla team accept the reality that bugs are going to
>come in from several sources.
>
>why the xxxx can't you?

Let me rephrase what Dirk tried to tell you:

If someone doesn't tell the developer that there is an issue, he'll never
know about it.

You CANNT expect the KDE developers to keep up to date with the KDE bugs
database as well as all the distribution sources for KDE (Debian, Fedora,
SUSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, FreeBSD, BSD, NetBSD,
Solaris, ). It's unrealistic.

So it's the responsibility of the person who did get the bug report to
forward it to the proper place. The Debian maintainers do a fine job at
it, but apparently yours slipped through the cracks.

--
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint:
E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C 966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358

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Tuesday 10 January 2006 03:08, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

why the xxxx can't you?

I can accept the fact that people complain about bugs / missing enhancements
on all kinds of mailing lists, bug tracking systems, feature request
documents and similiar. I however can not accept that when they report it to
some random place expect the KDE maintainers to waste their time on searching
it somewhere and finding it. And I am upset about people after a while then
asking those KDE maintainers why the hell they didn't bother fixing their
problem.

1) write a program to sabotage bugs.debian.org or a subsection of it.

Its not my intention at all to sabotage bugs.debian.org. Its a great bug
tracking system and its open, and it often contains great ressource of
information. I even use it from time to time (mostly reading though) :)

2) write a program that slurps bugs of certain debian package names and
duplicates the contents in the kde bugs.

No. Its the job of the debian maintainer and/or the original reporter to
forward their reports upstream when its an upstream issue.

the basic principle: allow bugs to be searched across
multiple systems (not just your own system); allow a bug to
be transferred by the thingies. bug maintainer people. for them
with one easy push-of-a-browser-button say "here. _you_ deal with it".

, thats a great suggestion, I'd even support you in implementing it. There
is actually a trace-back-kinda functionality being implemented for bugzilla
like systems I believe. Ah, the debian bugtracking system doesn't use
bugzilla btw.

ahh, why didnt' _you_ think of some of these ideas

Relax, nobody is being pissed. You just have to realize that if you tell
person A about a problem, person B doesn't magically get notified about it.
This is not different than in other situations in real life.


Dirk//\

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl (AT) lkcl (DOT) netwrote:
i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.

Let's quickly outline what's happened here:

1) Luke files a bug agains Debian. So far, so good.
2) Some time later, Luke contacts a KDE developer and asks if the bug
has been fixed.
3) The response is, approximately, "This is the first I've heard of it".

We (Debian) have a bug tracking system in order to keep track of bugs in
our distribution. It's the job of either the bug submitter or (more
usually) the Debian maintainer to contact upstream to make sure that
they're aware of the bug. It is *not* the upstream maintainer's job to
examine Debian's bug database.

Which is, uh, pretty much what Dirk said. Luke, what the christ are you
upset about? Nobody's said "Don't report this bug to us", they've said
"If you report a bug to Debian and nobody forwards it, we know nothing
about it".

--
Matthew Garrett | mjg59-chiark.mail.debian.devel (AT) srcf (DOT) ucam.org

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Tuesday 10 January 2006 13:04, Adeodato S³ wrote:
* Matthew Garrett [Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:50:56 +0000]:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl (AT) lkcl (DOT) netwrote:
i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.
>
Let's quickly outline what's happened here:
>
1) Luke files a bug agains Debian. So far, so good.
2) Some time later, Luke contacts a KDE developer and asks if the bug
has been fixed.
3) The response is, approximately, "This is the first I've heard of it".
>
We (Debian) have a bug tracking system in order to keep track of bugs in
our distribution. It's the job of either the bug submitter or (more
usually) the Debian maintainer to contact upstream to make sure that
they're aware of the bug. It is *not* the upstream maintainer's job to
examine Debian's bug database.
>
Which is, uh, pretty much what Dirk said. Luke, what the christ are you
upset about? Nobody's said "Don't report this bug to us", they've said
"If you report a bug to Debian and nobody forwards it, we know nothing
about it".
>
All correct. Thanks, Matthew. I'll just note that the Debian KDE
packages receive an incredible amount of bug reports, and that we're
understaffed to forward all of them to KDE upstream. In particular, we
directly almost never do it for wishlist bugs. My response in [1]
explicitly included the sentence:
>
This is pretty much the way Gentoo handles it too. Users report bugs to
Gentoo, and if it is a Gentoo packaging issue we try to fix it. If we feel it
is a KDE bug we ask the user to report it upstream, i.e. KDE in this case.
Some bugs we patch ourselves and forward the patches upstream, some things we
open the bugs for too. In general we ask the user who encountered the problem
to report the bug upstream if we feel it is an upstream bug.

If the community at large thinks there is a better way to handle this then I
would be interested. I do not expect the KDE developers to check our bugzilla
database though, and assume they know nothing about the bug unless it is
reported in their bug database. We do not forward all these bug reports
personally, but ask the bug reporter to do so. I feel that this is a
reasonable request and on the whole it seems to work well.


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Tuesday 10 January 2006 13:04, Adeodato S³ wrote:
* Matthew Garrett [Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:50:56 +0000]:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl (AT) lkcl (DOT) netwrote:
i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.
>
Let's quickly outline what's happened here:
>
1) Luke files a bug agains Debian. So far, so good.
2) Some time later, Luke contacts a KDE developer and asks if the bug
has been fixed.
3) The response is, approximately, "This is the first I've heard of it".
>
We (Debian) have a bug tracking system in order to keep track of bugs in
our distribution. It's the job of either the bug submitter or (more
usually) the Debian maintainer to contact upstream to make sure that
they're aware of the bug. It is *not* the upstream maintainer's job to
examine Debian's bug database.
>
Which is, uh, pretty much what Dirk said. Luke, what the christ are you
upset about? Nobody's said "Don't report this bug to us", they've said
"If you report a bug to Debian and nobody forwards it, we know nothing
about it".
>
All correct. Thanks, Matthew. I'll just note that the Debian KDE
packages receive an incredible amount of bug reports, and that we're
understaffed to forward all of them to KDE upstream. In particular, we
directly almost never do it for wishlist bugs. My response in [1]
explicitly included the sentence:
>
This is pretty much the way Gentoo handles it too. Users report bugs to
Gentoo, and if it is a Gentoo packaging issue we try to fix it. If we feel it
is a KDE bug we ask the user to report it upstream, i.e. KDE in this case.
Some bugs we patch ourselves and forward the patches upstream, some things we
open the bugs for too. In general we ask the user who encountered the problem
to report the bug upstream if we feel it is an upstream bug.

If the community at large thinks there is a better way to handle this then I
would be interested. I do not expect the KDE developers to check our bugzilla
database though, and assume they know nothing about the bug unless it is
reported in their bug database. We do not forward all these bug reports
personally, but ask the bug reporter to do so. I feel that this is a
reasonable request and on the whole it seems to work well.


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Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 02:04:45PM +0100, Adeodato Sim?? wrote:
* Matthew Garrett [Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:50:56 +0000]:

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl (AT) lkcl (DOT) netwrote:
i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.

Let's quickly outline what's happened here:

1) Luke files a bug agains Debian. So far, so good.

yep.

2) Some time later,

a year to 18 months later.

Luke contacts a KDE developer and asks if the bug
has been fixed.

yep.

3) The response is, approximately, "This is the first I've heard of it".

nooo, the response was, approximately, "bugger off and report
it via upstream".

no indication of intent to take care of it was given.


i _was_ prepared to be all nice and tactful, and i spent quite a lot of
time (on and off, but mostly off) over a period of several weeks as to
how i was going to respond.

then i re-read the message and went nuts, then tried to temper and
channel some of my anger by going overboard and into the ridiculous.

as i calmed down i began to think of _sensible_ ways forward.


We (Debian) have a bug tracking system in order to keep track of bugs in
our distribution.

i didn't know that. and neither will a hell of a lot of other people.
i just found reportbug about 2 years ago and thought "cool, i can
run a program on debian and i can report bugs. via the commandline.
great!"

it never occurred to me that i shouldn't be reporting bugs,
and nothing i encountered in reportbug told me that i was
doing anything i shouldn't be.


It's the job of either the bug submitter or (more
usually) the Debian maintainer to contact upstream to make sure that
they're aware of the bug. It is *not* the upstream maintainer's job to
examine Debian's bug database.

that distinction isn't made clear: it's only if people think about it
that they will realise that they are supposed to report debian-specific
packaging bugs to the debian bugs database and package-specific bugs
to whatever upstream thingy they can find. _if_ they can find it.

and even if some people do think, there's lots that won't.

for the _really_ popular packages, this becomes a serious problem:
the percentage of people reporting bugs into what effectively becomes
a black hole starts to get quite serious.


Which is, uh, pretty much what Dirk said. Luke, what the christ are you
upset about?



Nobody's said "Don't report this bug to us", they've said
"If you report a bug to Debian and nobody forwards it, we know nothing
about it".

All correct. Thanks, Matthew. I'll just note that the Debian KDE
packages receive an incredible amount of bug reports, and that we're
understaffed to forward all of them to KDE upstream.

that's why one of my recommendations was to consider putting, into
certain key very popular packages, a means to either transfer the bug
to upstream (via some mad notional XMLeey are pee cee-ey common API) or
to simply put into reportbug a list of packages for which reporting
should be given special messages:

if reporting on package "kde, libkonq long list " then
report "if this is a bug in KDE itself, please D NT report the
bug here, go to http://bugs.kde.org whatever. if you have a
debian-specific packaging issue (installation problem, missing
files, conflict etc.), please continue".

and likewise for mozilla.

and openoffice.

and possibly even the linux kernel, although that's probably the
exception.

other possibilities:

1) add into the dpkg thingy an upstream URL where bugs can be reported:

UpstreamBugs: (whatever)
if you encounter a bug in kde.
please report it here because otherwise nobody.
will fix it, thank you.
.

this would be _great_ because it could be automatically looked at by
reportbug and filed.

it would also be great because you could have, in dpkg-buildpackage,
the UpstreamBugs thingy of one "control" file added to dozens or
hundreds of individual packages.

this would save maintainers a boat-load of time.

2) against the list of "UpstreamBugs", on bugs.debian.org, email
received automatically notifies the sender of the above info.

just to make absolutely damn sure they know about it, plus
not _everybody_ uses reportbug - they sometimes (?) send in
messages direct.



In particular, we
directly almost never do it for wishlist bugs. My response in [1]
explicitly included the sentence:

you or some other SE/Linux user may consider reporting the problem
to upstream KDE, with a good reasoning too.

I know this is suboptimal, but it's how things are now.

[1] ;msg=25

Cheers,

--
Adeodato Sim?? dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org

You cannot achieve the impossible without attempting the absurd.


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Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 09:29:12AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:

Relax, nobody is being pissed. You just have to realize that if you tell
person A about a problem, person B doesn't magically get notified about it.
This is not different than in other situations in real life.

heya dirk,

thank goodness you noticed that i'd gone overboard on the "raving"
front.

hmmmm where's the bug tracker for bugzilla itself? hmmm


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Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 02:04:45PM +0100, Adeodato Sim?? wrote:
* Matthew Garrett [Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:50:56 +0000]:

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl (AT) lkcl (DOT) netwrote:
i've thought for a long time about how to reply to your message.

Let's quickly outline what's happened here:

1) Luke files a bug agains Debian. So far, so good.

yep.

2) Some time later,

a year to 18 months later.

Luke contacts a KDE developer and asks if the bug
has been fixed.

yep.

3) The response is, approximately, "This is the first I've heard of it".

nooo, the response was, approximately, "bugger off and report
it via upstream".

no indication of intent to take care of it was given.


i _was_ prepared to be all nice and tactful, and i spent quite a lot of
time (on and off, but mostly off) over a period of several weeks as to
how i was going to respond.

then i re-read the message and went nuts, then tried to temper and
channel some of my anger by going overboard and into the ridiculous.

as i calmed down i began to think of _sensible_ ways forward.


We (Debian) have a bug tracking system in order to keep track of bugs in
our distribution.

i didn't know that. and neither will a hell of a lot of other people.
i just found reportbug about 2 years ago and thought "cool, i can
run a program on debian and i can report bugs. via the commandline.
great!"

it never occurred to me that i shouldn't be reporting bugs,
and nothing i encountered in reportbug told me that i was
doing anything i shouldn't be.


It's the job of either the bug submitter or (more
usually) the Debian maintainer to contact upstream to make sure that
they're aware of the bug. It is *not* the upstream maintainer's job to
examine Debian's bug database.

that distinction isn't made clear: it's only if people think about it
that they will realise that they are supposed to report debian-specific
packaging bugs to the debian bugs database and package-specific bugs
to whatever upstream thingy they can find. _if_ they can find it.

and even if some people do think, there's lots that won't.

for the _really_ popular packages, this becomes a serious problem:
the percentage of people reporting bugs into what effectively becomes
a black hole starts to get quite serious.


Which is, uh, pretty much what Dirk said. Luke, what the christ are you
upset about?



Nobody's said "Don't report this bug to us", they've said
"If you report a bug to Debian and nobody forwards it, we know nothing
about it".

All correct. Thanks, Matthew. I'll just note that the Debian KDE
packages receive an incredible amount of bug reports, and that we're
understaffed to forward all of them to KDE upstream.

that's why one of my recommendations was to consider putting, into
certain key very popular packages, a means to either transfer the bug
to upstream (via some mad notional XMLeey are pee cee-ey common API) or
to simply put into reportbug a list of packages for which reporting
should be given special messages:

if reporting on package "kde, libkonq long list " then
report "if this is a bug in KDE itself, please D NT report the
bug here, go to http://bugs.kde.org whatever. if you have a
debian-specific packaging issue (installation problem, missing
files, conflict etc.), please continue".

and likewise for mozilla.

and openoffice.

and possibly even the linux kernel, although that's probably the
exception.

other possibilities:

1) add into the dpkg thingy an upstream URL where bugs can be reported:

UpstreamBugs: (whatever)
if you encounter a bug in kde.
please report it here because otherwise nobody.
will fix it, thank you.
.

this would be _great_ because it could be automatically looked at by
reportbug and filed.

it would also be great because you could have, in dpkg-buildpackage,
the UpstreamBugs thingy of one "control" file added to dozens or
hundreds of individual packages.

this would save maintainers a boat-load of time.

2) against the list of "UpstreamBugs", on bugs.debian.org, email
received automatically notifies the sender of the above info.

just to make absolutely damn sure they know about it, plus
not _everybody_ uses reportbug - they sometimes (?) send in
messages direct.



In particular, we
directly almost never do it for wishlist bugs. My response in [1]
explicitly included the sentence:

you or some other SE/Linux user may consider reporting the problem
to upstream KDE, with a good reasoning too.

I know this is suboptimal, but it's how things are now.

[1] ;msg=25

Cheers,

--
Adeodato Sim?? dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org

You cannot achieve the impossible without attempting the absurd.


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Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 09:29:12AM +0100, Dirk Mueller wrote:

Relax, nobody is being pissed. You just have to realize that if you tell
person A about a problem, person B doesn't magically get notified about it.
This is not different than in other situations in real life.

heya dirk,

thank goodness you noticed that i'd gone overboard on the "raving"
front.

hmmmm where's the bug tracker for bugzilla itself? hmmm


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